Zen Mountain Monastery - Mt Tremper, New York

Jancey D. Q.

I spent six months at Zen Mountain, and those six months changed my life for the better. I am not young. The schedule is rigorous, and the work is hard, even grueling sometimes. It's like boot camp--without the combat. There are bears. There are deer and fisher cats and chipmunks, many, many chipmunks. I surprised a groundhog in my cabin one night. It was warm and soft as it bolted past me and into the night. Being a person of color there isn't easy, but that's not easy anywhere, really. It takes fortitude, though. One can get lonely. I did not learn much about the Zen Buddhist tradition, but I DID learn an awful lot about myself. I learned to forgive me for the wrong I've been, and the wrong I've done. I've learned how to process other people's angst and disquietude in a way that is meaningful for everybody involved. I haven't given up Jesus--He's there too. I fell in love with Mister Buddha and his Mahapajapati. They taught me how to watch my thoughts and how to eliminate the useless noise that roared in my head from young adulthood onward. I met people who have shown me more love, caring, and understanding than any blood relative. I found healing and hope and encouragement at the monastery. It wasn't all flowers and candy, but you should go. They have systems in place to help you get there, and they'll welcome you home when you make it. If you are looking for a way to mend your tattered spirit and rest your aching mind, ZMM can help you in profoundly beneficial ways.

Sāmaṇera N.

I practiced with ZMM for over a decade. At first I practiced by myself from afar, using their talks and books to guide my practice. In 2016 I was finally able to show up in person, and after a few years of effort I became a formal student under Shugen-Roshi. I have since withdrawn since my path has slowly turned towards the Theravada (although I quite like the Mahayana still!).

For anyone who is interested in a traditional, intense practice of Japanese Zen, I would recommend this monastery in a heartbeat. The community is kind - as are the teachers - who are also patient, respectful, and always willing to meet you where you're at. That being said, they are also strict and this doesn't float everyone's boat.

If you go on Sunday as your first trip, I highly recommend you sign up in advance so that way they know you're coming. They do offer beginning instruction in the Buddha hall, but they prefer if you take the beginning instruction online - so best to do that first. You can then join the Sunday service over the live stream to get a feel of what the service is like, and also allows you to practice from afar.

If, after this, you decide that you quite like Japanese Zen you can look into their Intro to Zen Training. This is a requirement to then become a formal student, which you can learn the rest on the website. Compared to other traditions their retreat schedule may also seem intense - especially shesshin - but I quite like that.

In the event you decide Japanese Zen doesn't float your boat there are many other options worth exploring. Even though I ended up going to a different tradition in the long term, they trained me incredibly well and I am very grateful for that. They taught me how to sit - incredibly still - how to do things when I didn't feel like it or have the motivation, discipline as a whole, how to bring this practice into my daily life, sit while tired, restless, or in pain, in an intense schedule, and how important discernment is along the path. Even if Zen isn't your thing, if you're a Buddhist or Buddhist curious, they're worth checking out! 🙂

Andrew D.

I haven’t been here for over a decade, so take this for what it is worth, but my two visits here in 2010 and 2011 were really awesome. The monastery and grounds are amazing - truly they inspire introspection and reflection on their own - and the monastics were all welcoming, accessible, and caring (in my experience). As part of my initial forays into meditation it was hugely impactful, and planted the seeds for an evolving practice of meditation and self-reflection that continues to this day.

Michael S.

I have just returned from a 3-day Sesshin in the beauty and splendor of the Catskills and the Zen Mountain Monastery. It was enlightening, humbling, inspiring, challenging and so much more. If you have a Zen practice you want to cultivate, this is a great place to visit for retreat. You'll be met with community, kindness, compassion, and care.

Pete

Did 3 days there a number of years ago. The founding abbot, John Daido Loori, and many of his lieutenants smoked at every chance they got (mostly in a little private group during breaks). The abbot, when I asked about all the cigarette use (during a Q&A) said he couldn't give up cigarettes because he was addicted. The lieutenants, I presume, smoked because the abbott did and were equally addicted. The nicotine was consumed during breaks, which I'm sure helped them feel more relaxed during meditation. I read the abbott died from lung cancer. Another oddity was that one of the lieutenants would repeatedly scream "wake up" during meditation periods which completely diluted the startle effect she was going for. Weird place.

Nomad B.

Extreme cultish organization of pseudo-enlightened troubled individuals. Promiscuity runs rampant and the head of the cult seems to focus on the young and hot females and completely ignore older people.

I went there with the intention of spending two months and focus on meditation and a monastic experience. I escaped after a few days, horrified at what I saw.

Lance G. (.

Participating in a weekend retreat at the Mountains and Rivers Order changed my life for the better and was a profound experience. At the time, I was deeply skeptical. I remember vividly my sit down with a senior monastic at the time and relaying my skepticism. What she said set me on a course and while that course has wavered to and fro, I’m deeply grateful for the awakening it caused on that weekend many years ago. I hope to visit again soon.

bluebird

ZMM is highly revered in Zen circles as a place of true practice, where the Dharma is flourishing, and where authentic Zen training occurs. This high esteem, and widely accepted legitimacy of its methods, hides something that was very difficult for me to see and come to terms with. There is an institutional shadow that lies beneath the surface. A shadow further veiled by the beautiful buildings and grounds, by the romance of spiritual practice, and by the promise of the contemplative life. I lived and trained there for several years, both as a resident and as a lay practitioner living on the outside. Now that I am out of that ecosystem, I understand more fully what I have been feeling intuitively, that ZMM is to some degree, a cult.

What makes it even more difficult to recognize are the many wonderful and good people that orbit around the MRO to varying degrees. I’m sure many find benefit from practicing the eight gates, myself included. I cherish my time with them and that’s why I’m writing this review, maybe it will help in some way.

The shadow revolves around the institutional myth of the ZMM Roshi(See what’s been written about this for yourself). This is essentially the myth of the cult leader. ZMM’s training methods are, in actuality, cult dynamics unleashed on an individual’s psyche. The training is designed to precipitate enlightenment via ego death, forgetting the self, letting go of self clinging, the Great Death (Insert whatever version you prefer).

As with many enlightenment cults, one’s journey is generally thought of as a transformation from ignorance into a more spiritually evolved person, and is tightly woven into spiritual insights and new perceptions gained. The scope of this journey extends outward into a grand mission to compassionately “save” all beings. As wonderful as all this might seem, what is actually occurring is the dismantling of one's previous identity and the simultaneous formation of a new cult identity i.e. thought reform. To what degree and extent this occurs depends on many factors, one of which I’m sure of, is the level of commitment.

Here is an abbreviated list of what I encountered, and what you might expect with a more serious commitment to this group: a highly authoritarian and hierarchical structure i.e. totalism, a deepening of the 8 gates of Zen practice encompassing all aspects of life, a new name, new religious garb, a whole lot of free labor, an exhausting schedule, sleep deprivation, an insane amount of zazen, a whole lot of practicing “think non-thinking”, other thought-terminating cliches, a suspension of critical thinking, a mystical reward system with the Sensei or Roshi holding the keys to your spiritual progression and salvation.

The deeper the commitment and time spent with the group, and on and on the list goes: the further internalization of the Roshi myth(what better way than koan study), the challenging circumstances one is thrown into, the manipulation of what are simply natural qualities and tendencies of an individual’s personality (certain aspects are promoted while others are suppressed), the heightened existential guilt of having an ego(the Zen version of Original Sin), ZMM’s never-ending Zen step ladder of enlightenment, the scripted stages of advancement, having the rug pulled out from under you again and again, the metaphorical fist opening into a helping hand when you can’t get up, the advancement and halting of progress at the teachers discretion, all the microtraumas, the infantilization, the light fog of something resembling Stockholm syndrome, all the subtle ways you are manipulated over the course of long stretches of time, the simultaneous slow advancement up the hierarchy as one assumes a Roshi mini-me identity(an emerging sage).

The complete empowerment of the new ZMM cult identity culminates with the transmission into a Sensei, and eventually a Roshi. I believe what is actually transmitted is a cognitive virus of sorts that gives one a cultish God-complex, or in this case, a Buddha-complex.